SUMMARY: In this week’s podcast, hosts Phillip Crum and Kathleen Mills discuss details of the upcoming mental health professional conference, “Protect, Defend, and Equip.” Phillip and Kathleen also talk with guest Jeremy Hardy about the success of Carrollton Springs Hospital.
Episode #7 | Kathleen Mills Talks With Jeremy Hardy, Carrollton Springs Hospital
Kathleen Mills-Proprietor, Counselor at Life Tree Counseling
Phillip Crum-The Content Marketing Coach
Jeremy Hardy-VP Marketing, Carrollton Springs Hospital
PHILLIP CRUM: I am PC, the Content Marketing Coach. This week, I’m joined by KM, as your host, of Life Tree Counseling. How are you doing, Kathleen?
KATHLEEN MILLS: I’m great today. How are you?
PC: I’m pretty darn good, I am. The weather is what it is – it’s up and down – but the ups are really good, and the downs, I’m inside anyway, so I can’t complain.
KM: Well, I vote for celebrating the ups. How’s that?
PC: There you go! Well, let’s jump right in to our shameless plug segment.
PC: And that’s where you get to promote whatever it is you’re working on, Kathleen. So, what have you got coming up, when is it, how much does it cost, and what am I going to learn?
KM: Right. Well, I basically would like to personally invite all of our listeners today to a one-day conference designed specifically for the mental health professional. We have entitled our third symposium “Protect, Defend, and Equip,” and this is for Texas mental health professionals who are either interns, in private practice, in an agency setting, or maybe they’re just getting started. We hope this event is of value to our listeners and all the people who attend to help them learn how to strengthen their businesses so they can be successful in what they really love to do, which is helping others.
Our symposium this year is on Wednesday, April 30th, 2014, at the Crowne Plaza in Addison. We’re having a panel of seven speakers, and we are thrilled that we have 11 sponsors signing up for this event because they support strengthening professional businesses. It’s a 6 CEU event, and if you want to go to our website to learn all about it, it’s at Lifetreecounseling.com. Go to our Meetings tab, and you can learn more about it. We’re having attorneys, investigators, social media by my co-host. I’m going to review the top must-haves of a private practice, and we’re going to have some other stuff, so it’s going to be a very full day.
PC: April 30th?
PC: And the timeframe is what? What time to what time?
KM: We’re going to start at 8:00 in the morning, and we hope to end at 4:30. There is an extra CEU hour that they can earn if they would like to do so. And I’ll have more details about that at the event.
PC: Alright. Why don’t you run down the speaker list real quick. You touched on it a little bit, but elaborate on the speakers and their topics.
KM: Right. We are going to have two attorneys, John Pearce and John Mongogna – both from the firm Wright Ginsberg Brusilow – and they’re both going to be talking about how to set up a small business, and also what the mental health professional needs to really understand about what their liability and malpractice insurance does and does not do for them.
We are also thrilled to have two retired investigators, Steve Swell and Champ Kerr, who will be talking about how to properly respond to a complaint, how to understand the whole sequence of the complaint process, and do a very specific review of Chapter 611 in regard to release of records, which is a very sticky wicket for most of us mental health professionals.
We’re having Richard Phillippe from RP Strategy Group talk about how the Affordable Care Act may or may not help the private practice. I am going to be talking about the twelve must-haves to cultivate a successful private practice, because I’ve been doing this for 22 years now, and I think I know something about that.
And then my co-host is going to discuss how to market your business online and how to have a successful website, which I’m really excited for you talk about, Phillip. I’m very excited about that part.
PC: Good! Who’s doing the ethics discussion? Or is that a separate deal?
KM: Our two investigators and myself. We’re going to put the investigators right in the middle of the licensed professional individual, and the three of us are going to really let the audience know what to expect when you go through the complaint process, because most people don’t know how this works.
PC: Let it loose! KM: Sweet…let it loose.
PC: Sounds like a full day. Is there food involved? And how much does this event cost? KM: I knew you were going to ask that.
KM: Right now, the fee is about $135, and it’s all through online transaction, which is through our website. And yes, we have a very nice complimentary breakfast in the morning – kind of a continental breakfast – and then in the afternoon, we’re going to have some chocolate. We will need chocolate in the afternoon, because that’s when we’re going to be talking with the attorneys and the investigators, so I’m thinking we’re going to load up on the chocolate.
PC: So the price has been rising for a month or two, I know that. Is it going up further? KM: Next week, it will go up to about $145, and then there is a processing fee right on top of that.
PC: A couple of bucks.
KM: It’s still very cost affordable because our sponsors are helping with this, and I am doing this as a community service.
PC: And even if I show up at the door last minute, can I get in?
KM: You can get in, but it will be $250 at the door with a check.
PC: That’s still cheaper than one hour with one of your high-priced attorneys.
KM: Yes, sir, it is. And it’s very well worth it, no matter which amount you pay. I’m very committed to helping the mental health professionals be successful and love what they do, and that is helping others.
PC: Ok. So one more time, if somebody needs more info, where do they go?
KM: Lifetreecounseling.com, click onto our Meetings tab, it will show you basically what I just talked about, and then there’s a link that will take you to the online registration process. If you’re coming from out of town, there’s also a place where you can just reserve your room at the Crowne Plaza at a reduced rate.
PC: Excellent. Excellent. Now, I would like for you to tell me something I don’t know.
PC: Tell me something I don’t know.
KM: You don’t know because we just celebrated last night. Our family is celebrating our oldest son’s successful entry into grad school, and we are thrilled because he’s coming back to Dallas. He’s going to be continuing his classical performance guitar studies at SMU, and he was accepted into five grad schools. And the thing that I love about him was that he was very determined, very methodical, extremely well prepared, and sometimes fairly stressed, but at the end of it all, he was accepted to all of his universities that he auditioned to, including the Cleveland Institute of Music, and then he had to decide the pros and cons of where he was going to land, and we got the information last night from him, saying that he was coming to SMU, and he’s going to teach and continue his studies, so we are very happy here.
PC: Well congratulations. That’s quite a pedigree he has going there.
KM: Yes. PC: Quite a successful young fellow, there. So you said classical rock guitar, is that what you said?
KM: No, did I say classical? I meant “classical” guitar, which is kind of the Baroque kind of stuff.
KM: So it’s very difficult, very – well, it’s probably some of the stuff that you’re listening to. The podcast bumper music. That’s part of our bumper music, is what he’s playing.
PC: A-ha. Baroque. Kind of like Deep Purple or Led Zeppelin, you mean? No.
KM: Yohan Sebastian Bach, my friend.
PC: Ahh, that kind of Bach, ok.
PC: Alright. Well, congratulations to you and to his success, and continuing success.
KM: Thank you.
PC: Now speaking of success, why don’t you tell me about today’s guest, and who you brought, and what we’re going to talk about.
KM: I am so excited. Jeremy Hardy is with Carrollton Springs Hospital, and it’s a sweet little hospital here in the Dallas area, and they just came on board probably, what, Jeremy, about two or three years ago?
JEREMY HARDY: We’re in Year Three.
KM: Yep. They went from, “Hey, we’re just getting started,” to, well, I’ll let Jeremy tell about how successful they have been in the last two years. And I’m completely amazed at the progress and the success rate you guys have had with growing your hospital, and I think it’s well worth bragging about, to be honest.
PC: Welcome to the show, Jeremy. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about JH first, before we get into Carrollton Springs.
JH: Well first of all, I wanted to thank both of you for letting me come on here. I think you are both great people, and I’m just excited to be a part of this. I think it’s a great thing that you’re doing in your education and in your support of providers and businesses. It’s just a great combination you have, so I think everybody listening would agree with that.
PC: Thank you. We’re glad to have you.
JH: Well, a little bit about me. I’m from west Texas. I had lived in Dallas for 10 years, from 1999-2009, but I worked in other industries doing biz development and consulting for law firms, real estate, churches, and different things.
I got into behavioral health the first part of 2010, moved my family back to Lubbock, and just found out about this incredible field of people that work so hard, so many hours to help those in need, and it was really rewarding to see – you know, those of us that do biz development and sales, we like generating business. But when you’re generating the kind of business that’s changing people’s lives, it’s something that you can be very proud of at the end of the day, and so I’ve just been very fortunate to have had my blinders taken off so that I can see.
I mean, it’s rough at times, knowing what reality is out there, but the truth is, knowing reality gives us a chance to do something about it. I got an offer to come and be the director of biz development for a little 45-bed hospital in northeast Carrollton called Carrollton Springs, which is part of larger company called Springstone, and the company itself actually is going to open up its 8th hospital in August – its 4th in Texas.
I hear about this company whose business model is patient care, employee care, and then the money follows. And in any other industry, that’s how everyone does it. Sometimes in psych and addiction it doesn’t happen that way, and so it was very refreshing to hear that, and so I came out and looked around, and I was sold the minute I stepped in the door. It was a very nice place, great people – it’s been awesome.
I started in May of last year, and probably one of the best things for me, though, has been getting to know the resources in the community. The different providers – anywhere from therapists to doctors, businesses, law enforcement – it’s just amazing when you get people like this who, although we all have different parts in this big plan, we all have the same goal, and that’s providing help to those that are hurting.
PC: Jeremy, one of the things I’m learning over time is the vernacular in the industry, and the term I learned last weekend was “census,” which is what your industry calls how full your facility is; how many beds you have and what percentage of them are full. So what was the census percentage at Carrollton Springs when you came on, and what is it now?
JH: Well, when I came on, the hospital had been open about a year and five months. We had opened up in January 2012. The average census was probably anywhere between 10 and 15, but the day I started, it was actually 13 and had gotten down even lower than that.
Once I came on board, what I saw was a bunch of people that were really good at what they did yet were kind of beat down because when all you think about is just that bottom line census – and that’s all you look at every day – you tie your emotions to that number, and then you kind of forget why you’re there, and all you’re doing is getting beat down. The biggest thing that I did when I came on board – and not just with the people on the inside, but also with my marketing team – was tell everybody to take a deep breath and remember what an awesome thing that we get to do. And basically, just turning the attitudes around and getting people excited about working together to help others, and getting our team to be more focused as far as not feeling like they have to go to every single doctor in the entire Metroplex, but to find those that actually believed in in-patient and out-patient psychiatric and addiction services and provided such in their own practices that we felt good about referring to them. So we started to build those relationships.
We also started to become campaign and branding oriented. The hospital hadn’t really been branded, it had just been kind of existing, just trying to get on its feet, and so that’s really some of the things that I did; just brand the hospital, get all of our materials and all of our messages consistent. Phillip, that’s when you guys came into play, and you and your team were excellent in helping getting the vision I had on paper. And really, it wasn’t anything special. It was just drawing together all the different talent and all the good things that we had already going, and having a consistent message going out in the community that this is who we are.
Having a virtual tour where we put 360-degree cameras in the rooms, the bathrooms, the group rooms, the cafeteria, and outside so people could see us. Because when you say “psych hospital,” people think of the thunder in the background and the “Shutter Island” movie, and everybody’s thinking scary stuff, because in Texas, we’re just very behind when it comes to mental health; the stigma is very high. So you know, things like that to help people kind of go, “Wait a minute. This place isn’t like all of these big institutions. This is not a place with white walls and no windows. This is an actual place where I can feel comfortable and safe in getting help.”
So, those kinds of efforts we started out in May of last year, and the third week in July, we jumped up into the 30s, and we’ve been roaring forward ever since, and we’re hoping that we can expand. We’re in our third year, and we have been very successful. We’ve been at or near capacity off and on since last fall, and once you’re not the “new” hospital anymore – you’re more now an established hospital—you have to really make sure that customer service and communication is fine-tuned so that you don’t lose that momentum and that positive reputation that you have.
PC: The game changes.
PC: The game changes, doesn’t it?
PC: You’re climbing the mountain, and now you’re at the top trying to stay there.
JH: Yes. Yes, and I’ve worked for other businesses where it’s easy for people to take it for granted that things are going well. But if you’re not feeding that pipeline the right way, and you’re just going to stand at the bottom with your hands out, that’s when things go awry, and so we’re staying ahead of it, I think.
PC: Right. So you started at about 13% capacity census, and now you’re bouncing around let’s say 95 to 100.
JH: Yep, yep, we sure are. We sure are.
PC: You’re doing something right. Now how does it work? And I’m not throwing stones, it’s just every company is different. Your home office is in Kentucky, I believe.
JH: The corporate office is in Kentucky.
JH: One thing that really makes our hospital system unique is that although we’re in three different states, we all are very tight-knit, and we support each other. Springstone actually has two hospitals in the Metroplex; we have a sister hospital that opened up in January called Mesa Springs down in southwest Fort Worth near Benbrook.
A lot of the hospitals in our area are part of the same health system, and they’ve got to compete against each other. They’re expected to, whereas our idea, whenever we came into this market, was to co-market the Metroplex. To work together.
JH: Because we’re in completely opposite ends of the Metroplex, and there’s no reason why our referral sources need to see Carrollton and Mesa trying to get each other’s patients.
JH: So from the get-go, we have decided that we were going to work together as a team, and in fact, we do. We refer to each other a lot, we co-market each other at events, like Dallas Fort Worth’s HAP event. And part of why we wanted to do that was because we wanted to show the community that we really are about patient care, and we’re not about census, and we’re not about filling beds and all the things that you hear.
We really just want to be a good resource for people if they need help, provide them the best care that we can, and that’s the bottom line. I mean, the money follows, the census follows – that’s only meant to be a byproduct of good patient care and good provider relations.
PC: Right. It’s how you measure how well you worked with the people.
JH: That’s right. That’s right.
PC: Ok. Let’s talk about the services that Carrollton Springs or Mesa Springs offers. What specific market or crowd does your 40-bed hospital cater to?
JH: We kind of fit a niche. We are adults only at our facility; we do 18 and up. But we also treat senior adults, and we have folks into their upper 90s that will come into our facility. We have it broken down into a senior unit, an adult mental health unit, and an adult substance-abuse unit, so we kind of handle that gamut. We have them from 18 into their 90s at our facility.
We focus on mental health stabilization – folks who are wanting to hurt themselves, hurt others, who are psychotic, depression, anxiety, different phobias, things like that – and on the other side, we focus on folks that are needing to do a safe medical detox from alcohol, your opiates like cocaine, heroin, all the different drugs.
Actually, we see a lot of prescription abuse, which is really the big thing going in our area right now, and so we kind of do that. We also have what’s called a co-occurring program, which deals with the substance abuse, but also the mental health because as Kathleen will tell you, a lot of folks that are addicted to something and are using are really self-medicating because something deep has happened to them, and this is their way of coping. And so we deal with both in the hospital.
Now the inpatient side is actually a short-term stabilization, which is what we’re set up for at our hospital. So that process is around 10 days up to two weeks, depending on what they’re going through. That part is just meant to make sure that they’re safe, they’re monitored 24/7, and we have a lot of staff to make sure that they’re really cared for. Once they’re in a safe place, we step them down into our day program if that’s the level of care that they need and would like to have.
We also have an evening intensive outpatient, and so that’s kind of the purpose we serve. One thing that also makes us kind of have a niche in the market is we have an exclusive faith-based program called the Minirth program. It is a scripture-based program. It’s a workbook that he has made called “Happiness is a Choice.” It’s something he had done a long time ago, which really resonated with a lot of people. And so we have folks that are Christians who are in the program, as well as several people that are from other religions, too; just a lot of people who want that spiritual component. We have people that come from all over the country for that program, so that’s kind of an addition to our regular cognitive behavioral therapy groups that we do.
KM: It sounds like a special trek for that combination.
JH: Yes, ma’am, it sure is. A lot of people really get into that. Another thing that we take pride in is that, although we are a hospital, we try and be non-institutional. We try and make people feel like they can enjoy themselves and enjoy simple things, so we do a lot of different activities. We don’t just put them in groups all day long. We do an hour group, we do different activities and things, such as trauma-based yoga, we have pet therapy – we’re actually about to hire our 4th pet therapy team – we do movement therapy, music appreciation, a lot of different stuff. It’s just really cool to see people remember what it’s like to just be excited about normal things, and not be hindered by what they’re addicted to.
PC: Did you just say “pet therapy?”
JH: Oh yes, sir. Yes, sir.
JH: That is such a big deal, and that’s the thing – it kind of covers a lot of the different disorders and illnesses. One thing in particular, though, folks that suffer from PTSD – Post Traumatic Stress Disorder – whether it be folks that were in the military or folks that had a traumatic event happen to them at some point in their lives, so they have this disorder that doesn’t allow them to cope with reality, there’s high anxiety levels, and severe depression. Well, studies have shown and we have actually seen that when folks can get around animals – and these are trained animals that are trained to sense folks’ anxiety to get them calm – it’s very effective, and it’s also a really cool thing to watch.
PC: Interesting. At first, I thought if my dog had PTSD, that you could help him, but…I’m kidding.
KM: I think it’s the other way around, Phillip.
PC: Ok, I got it. I got it.
KM: That is awesome.
PC: Oh goodness. Alright, so – hey, you haven’t met my dog yet, have you?
PC: Carrollton Springs Hospital. Now Jeremy, what are you looking for? For people that are listening that might be able to help in terms of partnerships. If you wanted the phone to ring and somebody said, “Hey, I’d like to help,” or “I’d like to partner with you guys for all of the right reasons,” what are you looking for?
JH: One of the things we’re looking for regarding partnerships is providers. The truth is, if you’re listening right now and you’re a therapist or a doctor, or you work at a practice or you work at a business – because all of those places will be affected by what we’re talking about – partnership is key.
Where you refer somebody is really an extension of you, and you’ve got to feel comfortable in knowing that the people who trust you are going to get the help that you want them to have, and that they’re expecting. We understand that, and we don’t take that for granted.
That’s why it’s very important that providers understand what types of services that people provide that they refer to. The first thing as far as providers are concerned, we want to educate them on what we do, but we also want to really know what they offer, as well, because those people that have been struggling with something for a while, once they decide to go into an inpatient and then an outpatient setting, they may not see their provider for two to four weeks. And when they come back, they’re going to be different. They’re going to be in a different stage, so we want to be able to have that communication so we hand them back off well, and we also want to make sure that the provider is ready to receive them in the right way.
Second of all, we actually get a lot of people that call either because they sent somebody to us and they got help, or maybe they had a family member or they themselves got help somewhere else, but they want to get involved. There’s lots of ways to volunteer. At our hospital, we don’t have a specific volunteer program, but I will tell you this. Those folks that do want to get involved and make a difference in their community, first of all, if you are part of a church, odds are there’s a Celebrate Recovery group. Or a lot of churches now have PTSD groups. They have services to help women who have been raped, or children who have been abused, or people that are post-divorce and all of that – so there’s lots of ways to get involved in your community.
There are also different coalitions – different counties have different coalitions. There’s a group called NAMI – the National Alliance on Mental Illness – that every county has. We actually are in Denton County, and we work a lot with our chapter. So, I don’t know if that answers your question, or maybe I went a little over.
PC: Sure. Sure, it addresses it. Now, how does payment work at your place? If somebody says, “That sounds like the place I need to be,” how can they pay for services? What are the options?
JH: Well, at our hospital, we serve those that are able to pay for their treatment, and we take pretty much all forms of commercial insurance. We also take Medicare.
For our servicemen and women and their families that are on Tri-Care, we do take that, as well.
Some things we do not take, though, we do not take Medicaid. We’re not in the Northstar area, so we don’t take that, either, but we do have a lot of people that do pay with cash.
We have payment plans that we can set people up with. One cool thing about our hospital, though, because certain people have different deductibles, and these days, there’s a lot of high deductibles.
JH: They’re really getting up there. When people come into our hospitals for an assessment, not only are we doing the assessment for their psychological need, we’re also going to have our financial counselor come in to run the patient’s benefits, and they’re going to show them before they make any decisions exactly what they’re going to owe based on a five or seven-day stay. I can tell you right now, it really helps people make good decisions when they know everything on the front end.
I think a lot of times when you hit somebody with an invoice after it’s all over, I mean think about it. If you’re suicidal one day, you’re in a place for 10 days, you made a lot of progress, but you had lost your job and that’s why you were suicidal in the first place, and you get hit with this huge bill on the outside, what’s that going to do?
PC: Mmm-hmm. I’m leaving suicidal. Yeah.
JH: Yeah, yeah. What’s that going to do? So we do our best to be as open and honest as we can.
PC: I like that. That’s a good approach.
KM: I do, too. The thing that I really like is the collaboration and also the consumer education, and really having that piece, first and foremost. I think the recovery success is better when there are those two pieces working simultaneously.
PC: If you’re going to charge me $5 for an aspirin, at least tell me up front.
KM: There you go!
PC: I like that.
PC: I like that. Alright, so, what does the future hold for JH? I’ve known you long enough now, Jeremy. You’re one of those guys that everything you touch either works out extremely well or wants to, so there’s always something cooking. Anything you’d like to share or can talk about? What’s on the horizon for you and your personal growth?
JH: I do want to make sure and give credit to the folks I do work with. I think part of being a good leader is taking all of the talent around you and creating such an atmosphere where people’s talents can just run free. Phillip, you know Wendy. She’s one of my team members; she’s an incredible lady. Angela’s one of my other ones. And then the folks at our hospital; these are just people that are exceptional. They don’t just do patient care, they’re exceptional people. And really, my job is making sure they have this place where they feel free to just kick a lot of butt and do really well.
For me, personally, getting back in the Metroplex and seeing this Metroplex differently now, once you get into this field, it’s helping you see what life really is. Where need really is. Where a lot of the gaps really are, and I really feel like I’m a gap filler. I’ll find something that needs work, and I really want to do my best to help that happen.
I really feel like there’s a lot of good efforts going out in the Metroplex, whether it be secular-based or faith based, in addiction or psychiatric. This covers all industries, and what I really want to see is more of a cohesive movement happen where people can be networked better and work together better. There’s a lot of good efforts going on, but I think for your general person – your general consumer, your general attorney who’s struggling with addiction, or even doctors and health care providers that need help – I think the problem is that there is so much going on with people they’re not sure who to go to, who’s got a good reputation, who doesn’t, and the more I see this Metroplex for what it really is, I really want to see some things come together better; to be a more solid network of people so that there’s support.
The thing is if you’ve got a good network, from a financial standpoint, all businesses work better when they work together. When people are working together, when they have the right referrals going out to each other —
PC: There’s a synergy that you can’t avoid. Right.
KM: Where you like giving credit where credit is due and you’re not afraid of that, and you want people to rise to their full potential, and you’re not going to stand in the way of it. You’re all going to build on that energy, and I so appreciate that.
JH: Well, the great thing about our community is like when I met you guys. I hope this is ok that I do this, and for those listening, they did not ask me to do this. I come to this booth at this conference and I see this lady that I’ve heard of but never met in person, who runs this very good counseling center and who works with businesses, and that’s something that we’re really trying to do more, as well. And so I see her, and I see this Content Marketing Coach, collaterals guru Phil Crum at the same table, and one wonders what the heck is going on.
But then you see what you have are two people that have decided to do something that is not done, normally, which means you’re repositioning the market as those in our industry say. And I love getting in line with people like that, because you’re kind of saying, “You know what? Everybody goes this one way; we’re trying to do something different.” And when you change the game like that, like when we did the virtual tour, no hospital ever wanted people to look inside and see what’s going on. As soon as we did that, it changed the game. People got comfortable. Their walls went down.
KM: Well, you’re talking about how to build relationships across the board, and sometimes you do have to be very creative and think outside the box, because it’s all about having relationships in different venues. So when they come through the doors, they just automatically connect that this is the right place for them, and the fear and the anxiety is reduced.
PC: Well two things, folks. We are almost out of time.
PC: And #2, Jeremy, we’re going to have you back sometime, if you’re willing. This is fascinating, and I think we could talk for an hour or two.
PC: So anyway, we look forward to that. But again, we appreciate it very much. Do you have any parting thoughts? Is there anything that we haven’t covered about Carrollton Springs that you’d really like to have out there?
JH: Well, I’m probably not doing my best work in having not ever given out the phone number or the website to the hospital.
PC: Well, that was next. I was going to ask you where people can find you, so fire away.
JH: So those of you that have stuck with us through this conversation, let me just say anybody in any situation is vulnerable to these issues. There’s no one that is immune to a mental illness or addiction problem. No one. Statistically, one out of every three adults has a diagnosable disease. So for those of you having a problem, I want you all to see us as a resource. And though we don’t treat children at our hospital, we can refer you to a good one that does.
So again, if you are having a problem or you know somebody that is, just call us today. It’s 972-242-4114. We are 24/7. We are never closed and there’s always somebody at that number, 972-242-4114. Or check out our website at Carrolltonsprings.com.
There’s a virtual tour at the bottom left on the Home page. You can go in and you can see exactly what we’re about. Also on that web page, obviously, is our information. But I would encourage you, if you’re having a problem or you know somebody that is, don’t wait. Don’t be an enabler. Do something about it.
KM: Well said.
PC: Good words. Kathleen, where can people find you again? Quickly.
KM: Lifetreecounseling.com. Go to our Meetings tab or you can just roam around. We’ve got podcasts now on our Blog tab, too, so feel free.
PC: Great. Thank you much! I appreciate it, both of you.
KM: Thanks, Phillip!
PC: And we’ll see the rest of you next time. You bet. Thank you much.